Lotus Notes Application Analyser

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Ed Brill — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:15:32 GMT

I believe the appropriate response to that is "yeah, right!"

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Paul Mooney — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:33:26 GMT

Ok, if that is the case. Please address the following: 1. - There was a press release about the product - why? 2. - A few days after I reviewed the product and a Lotus customer tried to install the product, it was removed. I reviewed the beta and found it to be useless. The Lotus customer followed the links which lead it to the older 2003 version, therefore getting errors (I reviewed that one aswell - and it was useless) 3. - I was reliably informed by people "in the know" in MS that these were the EXACT reasons why it was pulled. I was also thanked by MS for offering constructive critisim about the product at Lotusphere, instead of throwing blind accusations of it being rubbish.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 09:26:13 GMT

Hi Ed/Paul

Are you inferring I'm a liar ?

Hi Paul,
Are you inferring that because you wrote a bad review of it, it was removed ?

Could you name the people "in the know" for me please ?

I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the product. And thanks for the feedback. It has proved to be extremely useful

John

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Mike Brown — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:25:07 GMT

"Are you inferring I'm a liar?" Sorry, John, but that's the last refuge of sombody that has run out of other arguments. Cheers, - Mike

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Paul Mooney — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:32:32 GMT

Hi John Yes I am stating that because of two very poor reviews of this product were published it was removed. And I could name the person from the "red bull" team, but I would not do that in public forum. If you take this offline and mail me (pmooney@pmooney.net) I will be happy to tell you. I am glad my experience helped you aswell. Please just don't try to spin the retraction of the tool. It just does not wash with anyone that reviewed it. period.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Wild Bill — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 11:48:57 GMT

I think the reason that there has been so much interest in Red Bull is that Microsoft have positioned themselves as having a very competitive response to Lotus Notes. To quote Balmer - "We're going to 'Pluck' the Notes market". Now as we in the Notes community have not seen a competitve response to Lotus Notes's ability to develop custom applications, this has been received with a lot of interest. John - you must bear in mind that the flow of information to and from the Red Bull team has been a two way street, and there has been a lot of informed, off the record discussion on this topic in the last few weeks. Now - I sincerely hope that MS actually start competing with Lotus Notes's ability to quickly and easily construct custom business applications. The MS collaborative portfolio at this moment in time, IMHO, does doesnt compete. And we all know that when MS and IBM compete on product, the customer is the winner. However, right now, all we're getting is badly informed and placed press releases, followed up by the usual un-informed MS sales "blog" piece declaring yet again that Lotus Notes is about to be assimilated by Microsoft. So you can see why there has been tremendous interest, and you can see why at this moment in time, folks are highly critical of any claims that MS have in terms of migrating customers off Lotus Notes applications without complete rewrites. One very intelligent commentator declared the task "impossible" given the lack of capabilty of the MS collaborative platform in comparison with Lotus Notes. (seven layer PKI based security, replication, reliable data store, alternative DB2 back end, Java, Lotusscript, etc, etc) Please - can *someone* stop MS making fantastic promises and not following them through - such as Kodiak, Longhorn, etc, etc. Because the one thing thats suffering in all this hot-air assisted melee is the MS reputation. Surely *someone* at MS cares whether or not the MS reputation is harmed by all this lack of delivery ? Surely even the most blinkered MS advocate realises that ? And for the record, given the first couple of paragraphs of this comment - no - I dont think Paul and Ed were calling you a liar. ---* Bill http://www.billbuchan.com

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 12:53:11 GMT

Crikey, this has turned into a fun thread hasn't it :)

No need to apologise, Mike. I was just looking for clarification. Thank you Bill for giving it.

The confusion seems to come from the press release.
OK, I’ve had a look at it again; dated 17th Jan 2006 entitled “Microsoft Announces New Application and Messaging Migration Tools for Lotus Notes/Domino Customers”. I’m assuming this is the one you’re referring to? Please correct me if I’m wrong.

It says “These tools, which will be available for free download” and “In addition, Microsoft announced the immediate availability of updated messaging and calendaring migration and coexistence tools”

I.E. The analyser WILL be available and the Microsoft Messaging and coexistence tools ARE available. As far as I can see it doesn’t mention the availability or the location off the Beta of the Application Analyser. It shows intent to release an updated version of the Application Analyser.

So when was the beta actually made available? At the same time as the press release ? Well I blogged about the availability of the beta of the application analyser tool on the 22nd December 2005. It was available for almost a month before the press release I’m assuming you’re referring to.

That same press release that doesn’t mention, or refer to, the Beta version. Its availability. Or its location.

The Press release which, as far as I can tell, is not about the Beta Version of the Application Analyser.

I’m sorry for any confusion that this has may have caused.

2) If it’s your review that resulted in the Beta of the Application Analyser being taken off the web site then please feel free to submit an equally negative review of the next WestLife single. I’d like that withdrawn too please.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

RichardS — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:57:52 GMT

John - if only Westlife would release Betas then I'm sure they'd be something on which we could all unify and offer critical reviews. :-) Tell you what, a platform-agnostic Westlife -> Music migration tool from an industry wide consortium would go down a storm!

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Paul Mooney — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:24:54 GMT

I reviewed the beta before the press release. When that (17th Jan) release first came out, it linked to the 2003 App Analyser version, and not the new beta. After numerous people called MS on this, the press release magically changed to "coming soon" and links to the beta were pulled at the same time. As you can honestly assume, this was far more than a chance happening. You would only have noticed this if you read the PR on its first day (which we all did). As you can see, a lot of people took a lot of notice, even on the MS front to this FUD. So yes... the public reviews by people that just will not stand for this type of FUD anymore were the reason the press release was altered and the beta removed.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 15:53:49 GMT

So you're confirming that the press release and the beta version weren't linked when you say it was linked to the 2003 version originally ?

So the press release never referred to the Beta Version? Just the current version. The 2003 version. Is that right, or have I misunderstood ?

I'm confused now as to what you're referring to when you say "This FUD". Sorry, I've just lost track of where we're up to. Is this the Press Release we're on about now ?

Maybe the original was changed because the beta was coming to the end of its Lifecycle and was almost ready to be released (as you stated, it referred to the current version and was changed to "coming soon") That would account for the change, and also account it being taken off the website. Now I can see a connection between the press release and the beta version.

Could you at least accept that possibility ?

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Paul Mooney — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 16:03:51 GMT

You see, now that is the funny thing and I am so glad you asked!! The press release referred to the new Application analyser tool, but actually linked to the old one (1st mistake and FUD). Ben Rose followed the instructions as dictated and it took him to the 2003 version even though the press release said it was the new one. His results are on his site. I had reviewed the Beta of the new version the week before the press release, and it went mostly unnoticed until the press release came out. When Ed linked to my review of the beta, which highlighted the many many flaws in the product, it got a lot of notice. So... at exactly the same time, the press release was modified to say "coming soon" instead of linking to the old version, and the beta was pulled from the MS site. This was less then 24hours after the press release and publication of our findings of the tool So, there was plenty of FUD, which most of the people above have written heavily on. Hope that clears it up for you John. As for westlife.... Combined, IBM and MS just are not powerful enough to stop em.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Christopher Byrne — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:54:26 GMT

John, *If* this were an isolated incident, I might think about it being a possibility. But it is not an isolated incident. Let's go back to last year when Microsoft posted a "report" on how easy it is to migrate Notes/Domino applications. This report was read and dissected online. Part of this dissection was the fact that the "report" contained numerous factual errors. Guess what? The report was pulled (although there are stories out there that MS sales people still show potential customers the report. Oh and so do MS Executives (http://www.controlscaddy.com/A55A69/bccaddyblog.nsf/plinks/CBYE-6EN245) Now to the "Beta: question. What self-respecting company posts a "beta" a few days before the Christmas holidays, expects meaningful replies, coneviently brags about it the week before Lotusphere, and when told the emperor has no clothes, pulls it before a month has even passed? Fear, Uncertainty and Deceipt: not a path MS really wants to keep on going down.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Christopher Byrne — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:04:38 GMT

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Philip Storry — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:11:25 GMT

"I'm confused now as to what you're referring to when you say 'This FUD'." Then let's review the current situation, with regards to the apparent links between the tool in question and its untimely disappearance after a press release that was of relevance to it: 1. There is Doubt as to whether or not the press release was clear and accurate, especially given the comments you have made. 2. As we discuss this, there is now Uncertainty as to whether or not people are referring to the same events and products. This Uncertainty is a direct result of number 1, and seems to have affected almost all involved and even just those observing. 3. There is Fear that this storm-in-a-teacup series of unfortunate events might reflect a microcosm Microsoft's attitude to Domino/Notes migrations, or perhaps even to the collaboration/groupware market as a whole. If this is true, then that attitude would not serve collaboration/groupware customers (of any company) very well. If you don't like the loaded term FUD, we can start referring to the events as DUF instead - the cycle seems to have been reversed here anyway... I'm perfectly happy to refer to Microsoft's migration initiatives as DUF if it makes you feel better about it. ;-)

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Wild Bill — Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:24:57 GMT

John - I accept the original press release said "soon", etc. Fine. But all the MS bloggers out there (some of which work for Microsoft) who then state that the tool *is* available, and *will* migrate all notes databases ? See my blog for some examples. Will MS ever be able to live up to *that* promise ? I dont think so. ---* Bill

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Wild Bill — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:51:50 GMT

Odd.. And here's me thinking that I put another comment up this afternoon. Ahh well. So. John. As your "About" entry is devoid of detail, want to fill us in as to who you are and what you do ? ---* Bill

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

David DeWell — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 02:02:35 GMT

Since when does Microsoft actually care about application life cycles. Although, I find it amusing that the response to this application release and the removal from the MS site were so close together, I guess it is possible. And I guess it is also possible that MS was attempting to cause a rumbling right before Lotusphere... By the way, what company in their right mind puts out a beta for a couple of days? And where is the file now? Does anyone actually have it. I would love to rev engineer this thing.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:48:17 GMT

First of all, apologies for comments not being posted. Combination of new blog software and family commitements. I'm sure we'll all agree that family must come first.

In the process, I've accidentally deleted one of Eds comments. User error, nothing more malicious. Ed, please can you repost and I'll pop it up as soon as I get back. In the process I've also managed to get 2 copies of Christopher Byrnes post. Put it down to my fat fingers.

Anyway,

Where do i start.

CB - With regards to the release date just before xmas. I actually thought this was a pretty decent time. Don't know about you but there's only so much christmas tv, turkey and relatives I take. It's usually a time when you get to have a bit of a play. As for bragging about it. Think we'll have to disagree about that. It was also about the "to be released version" not the beta version.

Customers are smart. Customers make decisions based on pain/gain. Customers use the reports generated by the application analyser as a starter for 10 with which to start a discussion. I don't believe they make their final decision based on it. Or do they ? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't met many customers who haven't wanted to see at least 1 application moved first.

DD - See above, the beta was released before xmas. About a month before the press release. Not a couple of days.

Bill - Not ALL the MS bloggers out there. Lets say some may have :) I didn't for a start.

As to whether we'll have a tool that does everything. I don't know. But I never say never. (not in a Sean Connery accent I may add)

Can the data be bought across? I'm pretty confident it can.
Will some of the standard templates be able to be bought across?Pretty confident the new tools will be able to do that.
Can you recreate most of the functionality on a Microsoft Platform by recoding. I'm pretty confident you can. We can agree to disagree on that one if you want. :) As far as cost goes for doing that - "the world is flat"

Personally I don't think that's the real issue. I see the issue as to WHY the customer would want to do that. If the customer is happy, isn't suffering any pain and isn't going to get any gain, why move ? They're probably not going to. However, believe it or not there are some unhappy Notes customers .. ..

Here's my take on one example why a customer may want to move an application or platform or both .. .. ..

I'll give you a little story. There once was a Lotus Notes Developer (CLP 3,4,5. Thinks he's 2 as well but it was a long time ago and he can't find the transcript). He used to adore Notes. So much so he was blinded to anything else. He used to develop everything in Notes. Even things that shouldn't be (can we agree that Notes isn't the best platform for every type of application). He was a decent developer. In his own mind at least :)

The great thing about Notes is it's a great tool for the RAD of Notes Apps. The bad thing about Notes is it's a great tool for the RAD of Notes Apps.

I'm sure you've heard the saying - when all you've got is a hammer everything looks like a nail. He used to pride himself on the complexity of his apps has he got round the fact that maybe Notes maybe wasn't the best platform for the job in hand. Well talk about getting a square peg in a round hole.

Now that developer was me .. .. but I'm sure you guessed that. And I'm sure you'll agree that i wasn't the only one who did stuff like this. I know I'm not. I've run the previous versions of the app analyser and seen the results. Don't get me wrong. There's some great Notes apps. There's also a few bad ones.

And those Apps may need to be moved to A N Other platform. Or at least rewritten. Or replaced with some off the shelf software. Or Retired. etc etc etc

Bill, I didn't see your session at Lotusphere but I believe it was on Worst Practices. So you must know that there are at least a few bad apps out there ? Maybe we can agree on that. And a bad experience with a bad app means .. .. .. I'm sure there's a really bad joke in there about a few bad apps spoiling the barrell.

As for me now, I work in our Small and Medium Customers and Partners section in the UK supporting both customers and partners around our IW technologies. Birmingham City supporter. Anything else ?

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Nathan T. Freeman — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:05:46 GMT

"Customers are smart." To paraphrase Kay from Men in Black: A *customer* is smart. Customers are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it. "As for me now, I work in our Small and Medium Customers and Partners section in the UK supporting both customers and partners around our IW technologies. Birmingham City supporter. Anything else ?" Sure. Who is "our" in the above sentence. WHAT COMPANY DO YOU WORK FOR? And if it's MICROSOFT, can you tell me why I keep having to ask MS bloggers this question? Your About pages on your blogs are only slightly less useful than the About pages in your products.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:34:49 GMT

Hi Nathan. Didn't expect this "interesting" comment on my return from Harrogate.

Firstly, I have to disagree. I don't think my customers are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals. I think they're smart and astute.

I'm guessing that 99% of the people in both the Microsoft and Lotus communities would agree with me on that one. Hurray, a first :)

I'm sorry that you appear to feel that your own customers, either internal or external, are dumb, panicky and dangerous animals. I can't imagine they'd appreciate being thought of in such a way. Ho Hum.

As for the quote, I believe Men In Black is
A film
A "comedy" film
A "comedy" fictional film
A not very good "comedy" fictional film
A not very good "comedy" fictional film. About Aliens.

Personally I can't say that I can put too much credibility in said quote. Now a quote from Withnail and I. Now you're talking.

As for why you you have to keep asking MS Bloggers who they work for, I don't know. Only you can answer that. Infatuation maybe ?

As for who I work for. Yes, it's Microsoft. I put my hands up here. I made an assumption. I assumed that as I was on the Microsoft unplugged tour, I have an @microsoft.com email address and my blog is hosted by Microsoft that Bill was asking what I did for Microsoft. Not who I worked for. Once again, my mistake. To err is human.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Dave — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:07:41 GMT

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't beta mean that the product isn't expected to be production quality, and and you are just looking for testing & feedback? So MS put out a beta, got feedback, took it down. Even if it was in response to the reviews, I don't see the problem with that. I don't see that the timing or the reasons matter, no matter whose perspective is closer to the truth. The beta served its purpose -- MS identified fixes that needed done, then took the tool down to make improvements. Obviously, people disagree with me, but I just can't get too worked up over this.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Ed Brill — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:15:29 GMT

John, the essence of what I wrote in the other comment has already been covered. I think there'd be more credibility to all of this if it was covered by someone on the Exchange team in Redmond or whatever, vs. a channel guy in the UK. No offense to you, everyone has an important role to play in an organisation, but my experience with Microsoft's field organization is that you are very good at keeping to the "message" you are given from corporate -- whether that message is accurate or not. As to the last comment from Dave, I think the point is -- most betas in our industry aren't "taken down" for improvement, the last version stays posted until the next version is ready. If MS now announced what "coming soon" means, as in "the final version will be posted next week"...that would have helped set/reset expectations instead of starting the conspiracy theories.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

David Jones — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:27:05 GMT

"Bill, I didn't see your session at Lotusphere but I believe it was on Worst Practices. So you must know that there are at least a few bad apps out there ? Maybe we can agree on that." -- There are going to be bad apps anywhere/everywhere but that typically isn't the platforms fault, that is the developers fault. What Paul and Bill presented were how NOT to develop/configure Domino related things using some real life examples and what was done to fix it (with a bonus of high comedy) so the app/server would no longer be "bad", so to speak. If I understood you correctly and if you don't mind sharing, what were some of things you were developing in Notes that you now think were bad ideas and/or turned into bad Notes applications? Thanks!

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

David DeWell — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:34:14 GMT

Ok John. My mistake about the release date. But still, I would love to see this application. From what I understand, it seems this application just makes suggestions as to where a notes database fits in Microsoft technology. If this is all it does, then this is nothing to get all hyped up about. If it truly creates code (which is what I am working on in reverse) then I would love to see it because I do not feel it is a true take customers away from IBM but could be used as a collaboration tool. Microsoft right now has a really bad rep with IBM Lotus folks because of the aggressive marketing techniques. I think some of the anger over this is spill over from Ballmer's comments back last year about Notes customer being ripe for the picking. So, where does this all lead to. I would like to see this tool back out on Microsoft's web site within the next couple of weeks. And then I would like to see how well it really works. I would also suggest that if the comments about the tool were not the reason why it was pulled, having the tool out there soon would not be a problem. If it is not out there pretty soon, it might as well be FUD Vaporware.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:49:00 GMT

Hi Ed, no offence and point taken.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:56:44 GMT

Hi David, I don't think I claimed it was the platforms fault. If that's the impression you got, then I apologise.

As for Bills session - that was my point. There are some worst practices out there that lead to bad apps. I wasn't trying to imply that Bill gave a session on how to code badly if that's what you mean.

Some of things I were trying to do were things that really should have been done in a relational database. And trying to write your own document locking system isn't always a great idea.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:02:12 GMT

David, As it says on the web site - It's "coming soon". I'll blog about it as soon as it arrives.

Till tomorrow :)

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Christopher Byrne — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:18:37 GMT

John, So now we know you work for Microsoft. How do we know that? because your "About" page now has content, when yesterday it did not...go figure. You can't add content after the fact and say "how could you not know I work for Microsoft?" You can't talk out of both sides of your mouth here.:-) You say you were behind on comments posting because you were spending time with your family. Then you also say Christmas time is the perfect time to release a beta because it is an excuse to get away from family? The Christmas season is the worst time to do anything major because: a. it gets lost in the noise; and b. People go into cocoons (I shut off most of the outside world, except for customers, from around Dec 23 through the last bowl game). You and others can rationalize until the cows come home, but perception is reality and Redmond has yet to respond officially (unless I have missed it in my post-Lotusphere nap). p.s. what is the official reason for Microsoft pulling the Notes to .net paper last year? Was it a beta that needed refinement after users looked at it?

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

John Westworth — Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:42:02 GMT

Hi Christopher,

I put the content on there because I got comments that there was no content on there. I get criticised for having nothing in there and then get criticised for putting something in there. Go figure. :)

As i said, i incorrectly assumed that because I was blogging on a Microsoft Blog site, and the only people who can create blogs on here are Microsoft employees then ergo Je dois etre a Microsoft Employee.

Sorry, when i say family - I don't mean my whole family. I'm not naming names for fear of being crossed of next years list. And I love my family to bits. But you can have too much of a good thing. Usually around boxing day.

To be honest, i didn't think the release of a beta version of the application analyser was anything that major. Not when compared to a new product or os release.

Surely perception isn't reality ? If it is then it really is a sad indictment of the society we live in today.

PS: Don't know why. Sorry.

PPS: Really have to go now - wife and blip want feeding :)

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Henning Heinz — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:19:54 GMT

I do really think that this is a valid point. "If the customer is happy, isn't suffering any pain and isn't going to get any gain, why move ? They're probably not going to." And as long as things like proper rendering of HTML mails are still broken there will always be customers moving away from Notes, no matter what Microsoft or Steve Ballmer say (as some might move to Notes and Domino for various reasons too). The Microsoft Application Analyzer has always been a fun tool anyway. It seems to be common for Domino consultants to show customers what Microsoft considers a "complex application".

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Greg Deckler — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 05:24:42 GMT

I find it slightly funny that this Lotus Notes Application Analyzer is getting so much press lately. I find it extremely interesting that it does not seem to work so well. As I remember, similar tools have been around almost as long as Exchange. I remember playing around with Microsoft tools to automatically migrate Notes apps to Exchange back in the Exchange 4.0 days. They didn't work back then either. We're talking almost a DECADE ago, and it STILL doesn't work? Wow. That's pretty sad.

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Wild Bill — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:10:39 GMT

Now - dont get me wrong. Its good that MS is actually trying to compete with Notes - its current collaboration strategy could be described as "mince". And the winner in a highly competitive market is of course the customer. Which is good. Its the manner in which the Red Bull stuff was done. it looked like it was the annual MS pre-Lotusphere "spoiler". So it was lept on. As usual. Now onto the actual code quality. It basically fundamentally absolutely didnt work. It delivered the message that if the customer was running databases based on a small numebr of templates, then they could use a third-party Business Partner product to migrate the data to some Sametime templates. You dont have to actually run some shonky tooling to do that. However, the message being brayed out of [the backsides of] various MS *staff* web sites was "Notes is dead" and "we have the tools to migrate your applications". Both of which, obviously I disagree with. You would have to disagree on the latter point. At the end of the day, the "Notes versus MS" thing benefits no-one - especially the customer - when there is not product coming out of Redmond that will actually compete. I sincerely hope that Redmond do some serious catching up so that we can actually start competing on a product basis. Instead of the FUD and hot air that we're having to deal with right now. The "Notes Programmer" story above is interesting. However, you might want to check out Notes 7 - its moved on quite a bit since the v3/v4 days.. You *dont* have to use Notes as a RAD tool for Notes applications anymore.. :-) ---* Bill http://www.billbuchan.com

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

Amy B — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:27:30 GMT

http://blogs.technet.com/CollabTools/

re: Lotus Notes Application Analyser

pmooney.net — Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:25:12 GMT

John... You guys in MS better get your stories straight. I am sure you may have seen this today. Doesnt exactly match your reason why it was pulled now.... does it?
http://blogs.technet.com/collabtools/archive/2006/02/02/418599.aspx