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Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Gone Tropos?

There was an interesting post in the new FSX forum on AVSIM the other day expressing hope that the airport environments in FSX will look as good as those seen in a promotional video for commercial flight simulator builder CAE’s Tropos visualization system.

 

A link to the promo video can be found here.

 

The full thread can be found here.

 

Like a number of people on the Flight Sim team, I’m very familiar with CAE products. I’ve flown a number of their simulators, we’ve even had the chance to meet some of their team members. As can easily be seen in their promo video, or firsthand, if you’re lucky, they do beautiful work.

 

The first time we saw the Tropos promo, a lot of us on the team essentially echoed the sentiment on the forums – I wish we could (or were going to, had time to, could guarantee our customers had the hardware to) do that!

 

The video shows some fantastic features – layered fog, smog, great runway / taxiway textures, wonderful falling and blowing snow, gorgeous ice effects on runways, and landing light effects that, because they use a real light map and not just an overlaid night texture like we do, are seemingly perfect. And you can’t overlook that wonderfully fluid performance, even with the compression artifacts in the video clip.

 

Let's set aside the fact that CAE’s products sell from 20 to 50 units a year for somewhere around eleventeen trillion dollars, they have a lot more computing power and storage than we do and complete control over the hardware, while our products sell . . . more than that, need to run on some pretty ridiculously low-end hardware, and, after a year or two, can be had at Wal-Mart for about the same price as a case of State Fair Corn Dogs (the official Corn Dog Of NASCAR).

 

We'll also ignore the fact that CAE builds a number of airports for familiarization purposes in excruciating detail, while we build . . . all of the airports in the world and everything in between in varying degrees of excruciation. Not to mention the fact that CAE gets to walk around the tarmacs of said airports, taking pictures and even measurements, etc, while we . . . buy books, snap photos on business trips,  and stare at pictures from places like Airliners.net and Windows Live Local.

 

With those things comfortably cloaked in denial, there is one additional disclaimer:

 

I think CAE does spectacular work. They deserve every dime they make, their products are fantastic. I am a fan. The paragraphs that follow reflect neither the stuff nor the things of the Microsoft Corporation, especially its lawyers. The subsequent ramblings are intended simply as an intellectual exercise, and must not be used against me in a court of law.

 

Bearing all of that in mind, I decided to take a short break from testing the animation of the float retraction system on the FSX Goose, and watch the CAE promo video again, this time, as a tester. My inner skeptic (who lives just across the hall from my inner pretentious b**tard) just couldn’t automatically accept the premise that their stuff is “better”.

 

So, I took a look with a different assumption – how would I improve on it? Did they make any mistakes? Are we doing anything “better” than they are? I gave myself half an hour, watched the video a number of times, and this is what I came up with:

 

  • Their sun effect is static and it tends to look cold and small – our new “bloom” is much prettier, and I think even our FS9 sun was more credible.
  • The sky doesn’t change color during the accelerated sunrise scene – the lighting changes so it gets brighter, but it starts and ends a maybe-oversaturated blue.  We couldn’t get away with that, at least not without bundling a copy of ActiveSky in every box.
  • Their clouds are flat, 2D, FS2000 era sprites. Ours . . . aren’t.
  • Aircraft shadows are extremely heavy, and dark, almost black all the time and don’t lose intensity in fog (in other words, they do this just as badly as we’ve done it, but our shadows at least aren’t as heavy to begin with).
  • Not all of the aircraft and ground vehicles cast shadows – it looks like they’re not rendering shadows when the viewer’s angle to the vehicle gets too close to zero.
  • Some static ground objects don’t cast shadows either, but some do.
  • Shadows remain fixed underneath those aircraft and ground objects that cast them – they don’t move or change size based on the position of the light source (the sun, in this case).  
  • Shadows don’t interact with other lights properly either – the taxiway lights get darker and harder to see when they are in an aircraft shadow, and the headlight lobes of the ground tugs and baggage carts actually draw underneath the aircraft shadows.
  • Speaking of shadows, there’s no self-shadowing of the aircraft – you can watch the sun shine “through” the vertical stabilizer when the Emirates A380 taxis on the icy runway.  We haven't modeled self-shadowing in any released products either . . .

(Note: I hate to seem so obsessed with shadows, but we shipped FS2000 without aircraft shadows because not everybody who was in a position to make decisions agreed that it was a problem that needed to be fixed. We ended up having to release a patch, which has a dramatically higher cost (in time and resources) than people realize.)

  • The surrounding terrain is using some pretty low-resolution DEM.
  • Summer and Winter, but what about Spring and Fall? And Hard Winter?
  • Certain ground objects have no night textures at all.
  • Specular lighting, but no reflections on aircraft models. In FS9, we did reflections in chrome, for example, using an artificial environment map. <Edited to reflect Jason's comments below.>
  • Gorgeous bump-mapping and specular, but again, no reflections, on the icy runway.
  • No touchdown smoke (we could probably afford to give them some of ours since we use too much.)
  • No articulated bogies on the A380 landing gear. They’re supposed to do that weird A380 “hang forward” thing.
  • There’s something wrong with the way they’re animating the compression of the landing gear as well – watch the bit where the Emirates A380 lands very closely: at the moment of touchdown, the airplane jumps and seems to be forcibly repositioned. It looks to me as if the simulation engine is taking into account a compressable landing gear, but that’s not reflected in the animation.
  • They could use some more variety in their trees. I don’t remember the numbers, but in our building, in the hallway just down from the restrooms, we have pictures on the wall of all of the currently available Autogen trees. There are a lot of them.
  • Aircraft control surfaces don’t move – no flaps, no spoilers, no fun. If ours didn't, my work this week would have gone a lot faster.  
  • Landing lights don’t cast a beam in the fog (watch the 747 land in the snow). It's arguable whether no effect is worse than an ugly one . . .
  • Great snow trails, but where’s the spray from the wheels?
  • Taxiway lines are inconsistent – some areas are really smooth, in other areas, if you look closely, they’re really faceted – just a few straight lines with hard angles making up a curve. Overall, I’d say subjectively that our best is pretty close theirs, and our worst is a good bit better.
  • No sloping runways . . . I know, I know, but I couldn’t resist. I guess Austin still wins this round.

 

So, what’s the verdict? Will FSX look better than Tropos? In some ways yes, in some ways maybe, and in some ways no. After looking at the promo video with a more critical eye, I can say that, in toto, it’s definitely not a slam dunk in favor of CAE, even discarding all of the disclaimers I laid out at the beginning. When all is said and done, however, I haven't proved anything here, other than the highest truism in software: there's no such thing as "zero bugs."

 

Most importantly, of course, I’ve based my observations and opinions entirely on some pretty limited information, but I’m not the first flight simulation fan that’s ever done that. And that's one area in this imaginary and slightly irrational competition between us and them where I'm happy to say we win, hands down: we have orders of magnitude more dedicated, enthusiastic, and passionate customers than they do.

Published Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:54 AM by Hal9000

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Comments

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Hmmmm.. yes.. interesting....

I think the question to ask should not be which of the two 'looks better', but which of the two is 'more useful' (and indeed. more realistic ;-) ) for the average customer.

Things like CAE are 'nice to see' but go way beyond my 'pet peeve': that 100's of thousands of FS buyers can not even enjoy the program because they don't know where to get help !

I think that is a better 'target' for the years to come.... already since FS2002 I don't worry so much about 'how it looks' (pretty darn fantastic if you ask me!), but more on how do we get all these 'shelf-copies' back up running !! ;-)

Okay, okay, so I'm an idealist and a community man.. so hit me ! ;-)

Sunday, January 15, 2006 11:36 AM by Francois

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

HI Hal..!!

what about yesterday promise...(more info about fsx)
don`t tell mi that`s post above...

what about ice/water effect on runways in fsx ,and most important if these condition will affect on airplanes behaviour...or just eye candy..

brds
Sunday, January 15, 2006 1:31 PM by martin

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Francois, old friend -

Interesting take, to be sure . . . I couldn't agree more that was refer to as "usability" is an area we can continually improve upon, but with respect, I think you might be slightly overstating the problem when you say that there are hundreds of thousands of FS customers that can't run the program . . .

Great food for thought, and a refreshing change from the usual feedback we get, that's for sure! ;)

And, no, I won't hit you. I might go hit Waskey, just because we like to keep him on edge.

- H
Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:01 PM by Hal9000

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Martin -

There's all kinds of info about FSX in my post if you read carefully. If nothing else, by reading the posts of the bloggers on our team, customers already have more insight into the upcoming version than ever before - and we only announced its existence 8 days ago!

To answer your questions directly:

Water on the runways? Yes, you must have seen at least one screenshot showing the effect. Will it affect aircraft performance as well? I can't promise that today, but we have had the ability to affect surface friction based on precipitation for several years, but haven't "hooked it up" because we didn't have a nice visual effect to go with it. Now we do.

Ice? I said above that we'd love to do it. Jason (a guy who conceivably could make it happen) has said the same thing. But we haven't yet.

Keep reading, or don't -

Hal
Sunday, January 15, 2006 2:08 PM by Hal9000

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Haha.... sometimes overstating an issue can at least make folks scracth their heads ;-)

Perhaps not as bad as taht many, but certainly I meet many people at meetings and through my magzine articles who have NOT heard of internet communities, often have no idea about add-ons, and would love more help i getting them to enjoy the sim better.

Something I am aiming to do in my modest way with current company and other activities, but something that could be greatly enhanced by the support of MS itself :-)

All of this, by the way, has nothing to do with the development group ! More with marketing.... so I guess I should write to the Z Man.... but does he blog !!?? Read his e-mails !!?? Hmmmmm.... ;-)

Wishing you a great week !

François
Sunday, January 15, 2006 4:48 PM by Francois

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Hal... thanks again I`m really glad of yours answers!!you are the first who can answer right to the questions!!
I`m sure that ice condition can be done (still few months to come), and wet/ice runway affect aircraft perfomance will be great step into better realism.Hal please tell me yes or no if clouds will make shadows on the ground??(we have seen only on the water far)and one more if flight dynamics will better than fs9 any huge improwments...
don`t be angry for those questions if you couldn`t answer it`s ok
brds
Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:19 PM by martin

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Hi Hal,

i post in your blog for the first time.... i say only one thing... CAE Tropos is powered by a rack of multiple computer... and "real pilot" that learn to fly with this big dimension simulator are interested more and more in flight model than in visual engine... And my opinion is that CAE center develop of its engine in flight model... Microsoft find a compromise for flight model and make better visual engine.....it's only my opinion...

PS System Test was my work until 1 month ago... now im a developer but i has left my heart in that work :) ... wonderful to blog with another SystemTester...

Sunday, January 15, 2006 5:50 PM by Fabio

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

> the highest truism in software: there's no such thing as "zero bugs."

That aint a truism, anything but actually. I will give you a simple example: a java program that prints "Apple". Theres just one line interest:

System.out.println("Apples");

There you go...

Jerry.
Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:00 PM by Jerry

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Jerry,

Nice try, but there's a major bug in your code: Your design states that it should print "Apple", but your code, as written, will print "Apples".

100% failure.

More seriously, if you hadn't made an innocent typo, you might have been technically correct. However, a major part of my job as a tester is to test the design of a particular piece of software as well as the implementation, and I would maintain that your design itself has a major bug: of what value is a piece of software that only prints a single word?

In the world of software, anything complex enough to have some inherent value will have bugs, period. The trick is to minimize those bugs (and there is certainly some room for argument on the definition of the term "bug") so that they have the lowest impact on the least number of users, which includes not only making sure the software works as expected, but that the product is available to users in a reasonable time frame (a product has no value if you try to keep fixing it forever), and that the cost of fixing the identifiable flaws is balanced against the costs passed along to the consumer.

This isn't unique to software, either - anything that is sold could conceivably be improved. Wouldn't it be nice if my can of Cherry Coke had it's own built-in refrigerator? Yes, but I don't care to pay $50 a can.

Bug-free software is a myth. Perpetuate it if you like, but not here.

Thanks for reading -

Hal
Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:50 PM by Hal9000

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Francois -

We are most assuredly on the same side, after all!

All the best!

Hal
Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:52 PM by Hal9000

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Martin,

"Hal please tell me yes or no if clouds will make shadows on the ground??(we have seen only on the water far)and one more if flight dynamics will better than fs9 any huge improwments...
don`t be angry for those questions if you couldn`t answer it`s ok "

First off, I hope I didn't seem impatient with your questions - I'm as excited as you are, believe me.

As to your next two, I'm not angry in the least, quite the opposite. Just frustrated that I don't have more substantial answers for you. As of right now:

Cloud shadows? We've pushed for them for years, so I sure hope so, but no promises.

Flight models: The underlying simulation engine is improved and enhanced with every version, as are our research, data collection, and testing methods. The only thing I can guarantee, however, is that we won't have time to do everything we've thought of, or everything some customers have asked / wished for. But we will do our absolute best.

Sincerely,

Hal
Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:57 PM by Hal9000

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Thank`s again Hal..
I`m really sure that you do best as you can and it`s nice to talk you via blog.
Hal did you know anything about new web site dedicated fsx?

brds
Monday, January 16, 2006 2:12 AM by martin

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

"Specular lighting, but no reflections on aircraft models. In FS9, we did reflections in chrome, for example, using an artificial environment map. Take a close look at the FSX screenshots to see how we do it now."

Pretty much exactly the same way... :)

Those shots all use an artificial environment map on the aircraft.

Ole Jasers.
Monday, January 16, 2006 5:00 AM by pixelpoke

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

"Pretty much exactly the same way... :)

Those shots all use an artificial environment map on the aircraft."

And with todays fancy technology, an artificial environment map can be every bit as tasty as the real thing!

Oops . . .
Monday, January 16, 2006 10:47 AM by Hal9000

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Hi Hal! I managed to stumble across here via Jason's blog, which I had stumbled across via Ellen's blog (Katie's sister).

Always fun to read your writings. Hope to see you soon!

Best,

-Todd
Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:38 PM by Todd W

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Hi All,

Apple and Candy! This is why Hal is and WILL remain the *King* out there at redmond by far. Super *King* Genius new front door plate is in order as well..


Regards
Chris
Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:59 AM by Chris

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Hello Hal....
break the silence...:))))))

brds
Monday, January 23, 2006 5:40 AM by martin

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

The sky looks like a direct port of default sky in Pro Pilot '99 (it was great in 1999).Since when you fly you spend the majority of your time in a sky environment-I'd say Fs 2004 is already the hands down winner here, let alone the next version.

The airport detail, and moving vehicles looked great-but you can pretty much get that now in Fs2004 with add ins...

Feature for feature I am sure MS will still retain its position as king. As for value-no better value in life imho..MS will always reign in this department.

The only thing that really impressed me was the ice on the runway-that was very realistic and quite a normal situation in the part of the country I live in ( I had a really hard time staying on an extremely icy one on a night landing a month ago). I'd love to see that in the next version!



Thursday, January 26, 2006 8:57 AM by Geof Applegate

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Just thought I would add my 2 cents to what I've seen (I've done some work on a commercial level simulator scenery) And like others have posted I really think that FS does many things just about as good (some times even better) than what one sees in a Product like CAE produces as there are many things that Open flight does not do all that well the terrain is one example and most of all the visual modeling of weather. As for things like the ice on the runway(way cool BTW) I do believe that when we get our hands on some of the new texture goodies like bump and or displacement mapping that that should be available to us add-on types you should see something close and maybe even "better" that what see in the CAE video. I do admit that the layered fog is way cool as well but I am not sure if that's doable in FSx or not as the math might be somewhat hard one ones video card with all those volumetric effects but one never knows what team team has up their collective sleeves Anyway it looks like we will all have a great time with the next version.

         Dan Martin    
Wednesday, March 08, 2006 4:59 AM by Dan Martin

# re: Comparing Apples to Really Expensive Apples

Something else that's missing from both incarnations: the landing light's lamps and poles!

Those would be such an excellent visual cue when landing in the daytime. At dusk it would just look awesome! A lot of people can't properly land a plane VFR without VASI/ILS for lack of visual cues (including myself)! Not having them really sets the sim apart from reality. (We want reality:))
I often feel something is missing while on final in an airliner and then realize -- doh! no approach lighting fixtures.

apart from the numerous ATC bugs and annoyances that's really something that'd make my day if fixed. Don't just stick your lights in the ground:)

thank you
/boo

- all you polygons are belong to us
Sunday, April 09, 2006 7:49 PM by boo

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