Universal Disk Format (UDF) Beta Chat Transcript (September 01, 2006)

Universal Disk Format (UDF) Beta Chat Transcript (September 01, 2006)

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Chat Topic: Live Chat on Universal Disk Format
Date: Friday, September 01, 2006



Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
 Welcome to today’s chat with the Universal Disk Format (UDF) team.  We will try to answer as many questions as we can today. Participants should type their questions, select the “Ask the experts” check box, and click “Send.” Those posts will go into a private queue, from which our experts will draft answers and repost questions in the upper window with their answers. (To confirm: if you selected the “Ask the experts” check box when you posted, you don’t need to resubmit.  

 

At this time, I’ll let the experts introduce themselves.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Good morning, everyone!  My name is Wendy and I’ll be your host for today’s chat.  Exits are located over the wing and at the rear of the plane.  We’ll begin our beverage service shortly.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
I'm the SDET for the UDF Live Filesystem. I ensure that everything works as expected.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Senthil I'm the Program Manager for the UDF live filesytem. I work with the dev and test team to design new features and make sure that the end user inputs are addressed.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is UDF Live something you made up for Vista, or was it a preexisting technology?
A: UDF Universal Disk Format (UDF) is a file system specification defined by OSTA that is not proprietary and owned by one company. MSFT UDF Live File system is Microsoft's implementation of that specification.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
I'm Tony, a Program Manager in the Windows Optical Platform Group, responsible for IMAPIv2 (Mastered Burning).

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the UDF format only for optical discs?
A: UDF was initially designed to work for optical media, but it also works for other removable media such as flash media and harddrives.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the UDF usable on DL layer media?
A: Yes. UDF is the file system that can be used on different types of media including DL. The current DL technology is limited to R and RW spec is being finalized.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Will the UDF format work without differences for 32 and 64 bit systems?
A: No.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Should have added x86
A: Can you expand on the question?

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tried UDF on 5472. Got 0 out of 5, w/3 BSD. New LiteOn  DvD Burner. Perfect ISO's w/ dvdburn. What now?
A: We have seen problems with specific hardware. We have addressed a lot of these issues and RC1 release will be much more stable..

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony: so its your fault we don't have image burning in the shell? (sorry, someone was going to ask if I didn't :P)
A: We continue to evaluate adding native ISO burning support as part of Vista.  Unfortunately, the feature is not part of this pending Vista Client release; however, we continue to evaulate other options.  This is an important feature to add to Vista, and you will see progress in this area in the near future.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
OT:  I just heard back from the Connect team that they can repro the NG issue and have escalated as a Pri 1.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When a disk is inserted it is automaticaly formatted. Can it be used later for an ISO image?
A: Rewritable media (CD-RW, DVD+/-RW) can be erased and reused for any other purpose, such as ISO images.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: could I format my hard drive with UDF? Is their a way to do this in Vista?
A: Formatting your harddrive through the shell is not supported, but you can open a command-prompt and use format.com to format it.  For example:   format X: /fs:udf  where X: is your driveletter

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What and when will be the next generation of optical device/media and is UDF part of it?
A: There is DL DVD RW, HD DVD, Blue Ray and in the future Holographic media that all will work with UDF.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony: I would like to see the ability to mount an ISO nativly more then to burn an ISO
A: Yes, I am in support of seeing native ISO burning, mounting as part of the Vista User Experience.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony: I would like to see the ability to mount an ISO nativly more then to burn an ISO
A: We are actively looking at ISO related features into Vista, but we're focusing on releasing Vista first with a solid Optical Burning experience, we work very closely with the UDF team to ensure a consistent burning story for both Live FS (UDF) and Mastered (IMAPI)

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When a disk is inserted it is automaticaly formatted. Can it be used later for an ISO image?
A: Once a disc is explicitly formatted as UDF (This is not automatic) It cannot be reused as an ISO through existing UI.  Unless it is an RW disc.  If it is an RW disc, it can be erased and used over.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: good morning all
A: konnichiwa

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: the problem that you (MS) have seen do they corrolate with the problems we have seen burning the media at too hi a speed?
A: Yes, we do know of problems with high speed media on certain devices due to device issues. We are working witht the OEM's to see if we can address these..

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What are expectations on new holographic discs?
A: This is way out in the future..it will unfold in the next 3 years. Lots of storage space..

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
For those just joining us, today’s chat is with the Universal Disk Format (UDF) team.  To post a question, please type your question, select the “Ask the experts” check box, and click “Send.”

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When formatting my 'time to complete' indicator is very erratic, sometimes reversing itself. Is this a software or hardware problem?
A: Which build?. Can you repost your question when you reply so that we can identify the thread..

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
A: Hi this is Ravinder. I am a developer in the file system & storage group dealing with personnal storage and UDF falls in that category.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: If Roxio or Nero has been used to put data on a CD-RW or DVD-RW does the CD need to be reformatted before UDF will write to it?
A: No this is not necesarry.  UDF is an open standard designed for maximum interoperability.  We have done interop testing in the past and everything worked fine.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: DVD+R uses UDF 1.02, DVD-VR / DVD-R / DVD-RW / DVD-RAM use UDF 2.00 and BluRay uses UDF 2.50 and 2.60, so whats the advantages / differences for Vista / advantages?
A: 1.02 First revision, suitable for read-only media

1.50  Support write once media and defect management on media

2.00  Support named streams

2.01  Fix minor errors

2.50   Support metadata partition for better performance

2.60  Support pseudo-overwrite partition

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: So what are the differences in the UDF Format for 32 and 64 bit systems?
A: There is no difference for 32 / 64 bit UDF implementaitons

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Could you elaborate on the differences between x86 and x64 implementations (going back to question 3)?
A: There is none.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I am not used to using an in the box disk writer. Is a disk written on a Vista machine readable without software on another box>?
A: Yes, CDs/DVDs created on Vista machines will be readable on other PCs without special software.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Whose code is being used for UDF and Mastered. Is it Roxio, someone else's or all MSFT?
A: Native Microsoft implementation completely..

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: If you have an existing CD-RW how can you tell if it is compatable with UDF for adding additional files?
A: When you insert the media all your files will simply show up in explorer.  You can drag and drop new files to it.  If for some reason the CD-RW does not conform to the UDF specification you'll get the option of running chkdsk and fixing problems.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: With 64 bit version I had a lot of troubles as my writing device gets out of the device manager. Has it been fixed in a later build?
A: There were some issues that we did address in the recent RC1 builds. You can try out the latest build. Another option is to check if there is a firmware update available for your drive.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is ther a utility that quickly tells me if my drive will support each of the following types of media CD-R CD -RW CD + R CD +RW DVD -R DVD -RW DVD + R And DVD + RW
A: None exists inbox, but we might think of shipping some tool as a download or in a later release.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Iin the live meeting, microsoft's image mounting powertoy was mentioned as an alternative for image support in the shell. This doesn't actually work in the latest BT release.
A: Why image are you trying to mount? ISO9660 or UDF? There were some issues with mounting UDF with the image mounting powertoy which will be resolved soon.


Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: If in the future, WinFS or a derivative using its technologies (or just any metadata-rich FS) gets put in to Windows, will the metadata on UDF 2.50 disks be usable? How about on currently existing metadata-rich filesystems?
A: Yes, UDF is like any other filesystem and any metadata FS will be able to work with UDF.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is ther a utility that quickly tells me if my drive will support each of the following types of media CD-R CD -RW CD + R CD +RW DVD -R DVD -RW DVD + R And DVD + RW
A: there's currently no such tool.  We are considering releasing something like this in the future as a powertoy.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What's new in UDF 2.6? Do you expect to upgrade? Will you continue to upgrade or will 2.5 remain static in Vista? Will WXP be upgraded to UDF 2.5?
A: XP read capability will be upgraded to UDF 2.50 shortly after Vista is released. UDF 2.60 is targetted for BD-R media only and does not affect any other media type.

CORRECTION August 2008: currently there is no plans to add UDF 2.5 read support for XP.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: does UDF in vista support overburning?
A: No.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: does UDF in vista support overburning?
A: No, we do not support overburning in Vista.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: you said for live file system to be read in older ROM devices you should click "Eject" in the OS to close the session - if you just open the drive using the physical button is there a hook in the OS to trigger the session close? or do I have to remember...
A: Yes, there is.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Does either -R or +R work best with UDF?
A: Both -R and +R work equally well.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
A: Regd 32/64 bit difference..The specification doesn't make any distinctions based on the platform that is using the technology..

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: Does UDF in Vista support Blu Ray disks or HD-DVD?
A: Full aupport being added - lack of hardwre however is making it difficut for us to test themn

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Would it be correct to compare DVD-RAM with UDF as both standards seem to have the same functionality, except UDF is a more open standard, unlike discs / hardware that only work with DVD-RAM?
A: DVD-RAM is just a media. UDF is the underlying file system that is used to store data on it.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: (OT?): Could firmware updates be delivered through Windows Update for better burning support?
A: I don't think this is currently supported. But we, the UDF team,  would like to see this happen..

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Per Q:4  will an HD that has been formatted for UDF need to be reformatted after the HD is full to copy new files, or can files be deleted individually?
A: It is possible to delete files on a harddrive to free up space so you can copy new files to the drive.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: can i read nero incd disk ?, and can i write on this without new format ?
A: Yes for both

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: If I install a + RW media in a device that only supports - RW media should I quickly get a message that my Grandmother could understand that explains I am using the wrong type of media?
A: Nope.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: All of the VISTA downloads are ISO and most of the downloads on MSDN are ISO, How can I use VISTA to create a CD from an ISO File?
A: Burning an ISO natively is not part of Vista, as of yet.  However, there are ways of using IMAPI and very straightforward VB Script to burng ISOs to media, or you can use 3rd party applications.  If you visit http://forums.microsoft.com/msdn/showforum.aspx?forumid=490&siteid=1 you can discuss various IMAPI methods for burning discs natively to Vista.  There are discussions there about IMAPI usage.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What advantages can we see using UDF in Vista vs, using a burning application, like Nero, etc.?
A: The main advantage using Vista is that you do not need to launch an application or install additional drivers to have drag and drop file transfer ability on Writeable discs.  Once you format a disc as UDF, it is similar to any removeable media and requires minimal effort.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: If I install a + RW media in a device that only supports - RW media should I quickly get a message that my Grandmother could understand that explains I am using the wrong type of media?
A: Nope - the drive unfortunately doesn't report this corretly to the File System for Vista to report a meaningfu error message

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: [Re Q3:] What will be the difference, and is that noticed by the user if burned?
A: There is no difference in the on disk layout of UDF for 32 & 64 bit OS. They are both the same. The file system on disc is agnostic to the OS.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Please expand on the Q[3] answer?
A: My earlier response to the 32/64 bit system needs clarification. I meant No, there are no differences in the implementation for 32/64 bit system.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can you right product cdrw's/dvdrw's by software or is it just done by using cdr/dvdr media?
A: UDF writing supports both RW as well as R media.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Do burners know what the maximum write speed for any given disk is? Is that part of the info on the disk or is it determined experimentally?
A: Yes, devices will report back at what speed they can burn the inserted media

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re 3, if you meant that answer - What are the differences
A: My earlier response to the 32/64 bit system needs clarification. I meant No, there are no differences in the implementation for 32/64 bit system.


Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: I am a bit confused on what is happening with formatting and using UDF file storing. Backing up to the CD failed twice and was OK on the next attempt.  I have no idea why, but I wonder if I can trust this format when the time comes to restore the files.
A: Did the format succeed initially - what errors did you get? In a nutshell, yes, backing up to CD should "just work" using the live file system if the device and media don't have issues

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When formatting a RW disc under build 5536 the 'time to complete' indicator is very erratic, sometimes even reversing itself . Is this likely to be a software or hardware problem?
A: It might either be a software or a hardware problem... The progress indication is returned by the drive and that is used to display the time information... so its very likely that this may be a hardware issue. Try formatting on the command prompt using format.com and see if you notice any difference through shell

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the UDF spec backwards compatible to older OS's? I have Win98SE systems at work. If I write a UDF CD at home under Vista, can it be read on the Win98 systems at work?
A: both win98 and winxp have UDF read-only capability.  A udf disc written with Vista can be read on older OSses.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: you said for live file system to be read in older ROM devices you should click "Eject" in the OS to close the session - if you just open the drive using the physical button is there a hook in the OS to trigger the session close? or do I have to remember...
A: Yes, the session is automatically closed on eject

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re 9 - 0 for 5 - What do I do? Do I bother to bug all of these? or only the WER? Can they be a single MBC? Should I try same on 5472x64?
A: I would advise an upgrade to the latest build. If you do see a problem there, you should definetely bug this with as much information you can supplu, drive/media and specific repro steps.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
For those just joining us, today’s chat is with the Universal Disk Format (UDF) team.  To post a question, please type your question, select the “Ask the experts” check box, and click “Send.”

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the UDF spec backwards compatible to older OS's? I have Win98SE systems at work. If I write a UDF CD at home under Vista, can it be read on the Win98 systems at work?
A: UDF has different revisions and Win98 can't read all revisions. By default we use UDF 2.01 which is not compatible with Windows 98. You can change the revision to 1.50 which is readable in Win98.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: will Windows get component upgrades for the burning support? For example, an incremental update that might add UDF 2.60 support, or some unannounced UDF revision?
A: 2.60 support my be added in future Service Packs, unlikely as a Windows update download

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is there a reason that UDF 2.01 is recommended for formatting a DVD instead of 2.50?
A: Purely for compatability reasons. 2.5 is relatively new too..

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: will Windows get component upgrades for the burning support? For example, an incremental update that might add UDF 2.60 support, or some unannounced UDF revision?
A: Unlike the past, from Vista+ we will plan on providing out of band support for incremental changes and fixes.  We can not elaborate on how and when those changes will occur, but our plan will be to keep on top of hot optical issues in both the Live FS (UDF) and Mastered burning scenarios.  Such improvements would include new hardware support, media type, file system, and other changes to address problems found by our customers.  In other words, the past behavior of waiting only at major OS releases is a relic of the past.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can I add data to Vista formatted UDF (v2.5) disk in Windows XP?
A: No Windows XP does not have write capability. Also read capability is limited to UDF 2.01.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can a hard-cased two-sided DvD-RAM disk be removed from case and used in burner that supports DvD-RAM only w/o the case? I assume it can be flipped for second side.
A: This depends on the type of cartridge.  Some cartridges are designed to be opened, other are sealed and cannot be opened.  When you take a DVD-RAM out you can insert it into a drive which doesn't take the cartridge format, and you can flip it to write to the other side.  Note however, that the media becomes more vulnerable to wear, like fingerprints and dust when you take it out of the cartridge.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Can I add data to Vista formatted UDF (v2.5) disk in Windows XP?
A: No, you cannot currently add data to a Vista Formatted UDF (2.5) disc using any existing XP funtionality.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Please expand on the Q[3] answer?
A: My earlier response to the 32/64 bit system needs clarification. I meant No, there are no differences in the implementation for 32/64 bit system.


Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Q: Re Q43, The DVD formatted disk was just rejected by the backup wizard. But on the 3rd attempt, a backup was written to disk,
A: Does this repro consistently on other media - I suspect bad media

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re 49 - how do the devices determine the maximum speed? Is that info on the disk ?
A: The device does a power calibration when the first write command is received which determines the speed at which it can write to the media. There is some information that is preserved on the disc as well and some devices use that information. So all depends on the device.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: After a session is closed on a UDF Live disk, we can start a new session later and continue using it as a removable drive, can't we?
A: That is correct, a disc can have many sessions on it.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I notice that Vista (5472 x86) is trying to write a desktop.ini file to various opticqal media. Is that an bug?
A: This file has some specific information which the shell stores. I'll followup with the shell team on this behavior.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I found an upgrade path for my device. Does Vista support flashing?
A: Vista has no OS specific support for flash other than providing a platform for the OEM's flash utility to execute.  It's up to the manufacture to ensure that their flash utility works in Vista.  We are investigating providing a platform level support for flashing, and such a feature is in concept at this time.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Could you briefly discuss filesystem limits in UDF (filename lengths, path depths, that sort of thing)?
A: UDF natively supports many modern file systems features:

Large partition size (maximum 2TB with 512B block size, or 8TB with 2KB block size)

64-bit file size

Extended attributes (e.g., named streams, or forks) without size limitation

Long file names (maximum 254 bytes, any character can appear in the name)

Unicode encoding of file names

Sparse file

Hard links

Symbolic links

Metadata checksum

 

Limitations.

 

Limited partition size. 32-bit block number limits the partition size to 2TB for 512 sector size.

Does not support compressed/encrypted file and directories.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Wendy - do you still want bugs on 5472 x64 or is that a "dead"  build?
A: Steve, we would still accept bugs on 5472, but it will be a great help to us if this can be repro'ed on a later build.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Could you briefly discuss filesystem limits in UDF (filename lengths, path depths, that sort of thing)?
A: UDF has a lot of features... supports long file name upto 254 ASCII characters or 127 unicode characters. Depth is limit to 32K. Alternate data streams are supported.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re 10, see immediately preceeding question  0 for 5.
A: Can you repost you question?

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
We will need to wrap up this chat in about 20 minutes. Please post any other questions (select the “Ask the experts” check box) that you would like us to answer. Thanks!

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re: Q24:- I wanted know: Can you write protect cdrw's/dvdrw's by software or is it just done by using cdr/dvdr media?
A: In Vista you can't write protect CD/DVD RW media. Even CD-R media is not write protected because you can change the file contents.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Does UDF in Vista support encryption, or are files decrypted when written to DVD?
A: UDF in Vista doesn't support encryption.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: will NTFS symlinks be converted in to UDF symlinks during burning?
A: No.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Does UDF in Vista support encryption, or are files decrypted when written to DVD?
A: Vista does not support compressed/encrypted file and directories on UDF.


Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: how can we create symbolic links in UDF on Vista? I don't suppose the mlink tool will work, will it?
A: Not supported on UDF.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the burning system in Vista pluggable? So, could a third party add UDF 2.60 (or a custom FS) support and have it appear as an option in Vista like the various UDF revisions do? If not, are there plans for this system?
A: The ISO burning system in Vista is pluggable using existing XP ICDburn apis.  UDF burning however is not currently pluggable.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is the burning system in Vista pluggable? So, could a third party add UDF 2.60 (or a custom FS) support and have it appear as an option in Vista like the various UDF revisions do? If not, are there plans for this system?
A: I'll take a stab at this from the IMAPI side of the house.  In terms of Mastering, IMAPI provides support for anyone to extend the interfaces with any added functionality such as a custom filesystem.  However, the options available to Live UDF are not part of IMAPI, and therefore any extensions implemented in the mastering side of burning would not be available through the Vista User Experience (SHELL).  As an example, suppose that a new media type Holodisc is released, it is very possible that as long as the device is recognized as a cdrom class (MMC) device, then you could extend the IMAPI interfaces to support creation of a filesystem and writing of data onto holodiscs.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Formatting of DVD + RW and - RW seems to be much slower with UDF than with ROXIO. Is UDF doing the same thing as ROXIO?
A: DVD+RW media support background format so formatting should not take that much time... -RW on the other hand does take a long time and ROXIO may be using some other method of formatting.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Formatting of DVD + RW and - RW seems to be much slower with UDF than with ROXIO. Is UDF doing the same thing as ROXIO?
A: Roxio and Microsoft have their own implementations of the open UDF specification. Can you tell me the details of the perf differences?. Specifics always help us track down problems better.

David [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re: Q24:- I wanted know: Can you write protect cdrw's/dvdrw's by software or is it just done by using cdr/dvdr media?
A: While software write protect in specified for several rewritable media, there is no support for setting disk to software write protect in Vista. Vista will respect the write protection by not modifying write protected disks. Some speciliazed software may implement support for this feature on a per media type basis.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: [28]: I believe it was ISO9660, although the fact that fixes are being made to UDF could indicate that I'm wrong.
A: Please try this again. I am pretty sure ISO9660 mounting works as I am tested it myself. If you still have problems send a mail at the newsgroup and I'll followup there



David [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: where does joliet fit in all this?
A: Joliet is used for disc mastering. It is an extension to ISO9660. Joliet allows in particular a richer set of characters and longer file and directory names than the original ISO9660.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: OK, so you said that UDF supports hard and soft links, then said we have no way to make the soft links. What are the supported feature subsets for reading and for writing from the earlier list of filesystem features?
A: UDF specification supports symlinks. Microsoft implemenation does not support it as yet..

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re Q56: I have a DVD-rw that won't format with udf. The disk was written via Vista media center and when I try to re-format it I am told the disk is write protected.  Is this due to how media center writes to the disk?
A: It should work... We'll take a look to see why it does not. You can try erasing the disc and then try formatting

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: What type of media is most recommended?  Sorry if this was asked earlier, I just got here a few minutes ago.
A: The type of media you want to use depends on your needs.  DVD will hold much more data then CD media.  Also, incremental media (CD-R, DVD+/-R) is faster than rewritable media, but incremental media cannot be reused.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: When formatting a 650 MB CD-RW disk, it says the capacity is only 174 MB. Is this normal?
A: No, this shouldn't happen!!. Can you do a full format of the media to see if it reclaims space?

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: THis may be stupid, but can we use UDF in some way like Sync Center to keep a copy of a document on the HD and on the UDF disk at the same time without manual intervention?  So if a HD crashed, it would already be on the UDF disk?
A: Its possible... UDF is just a file system and presents the disc to the application and sync center can write to it

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: how does media center take advantage of the new UDF support? _does_ Media Center take advantage of it?
A: No media center does not take advantage of it.

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
We will need to wrap up this chat in about 10 minutes. Please post any other questions (select the “Ask the experts” check box) that you would like us to answer. Thanks!

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: how does media center take advantage of the new UDF support? _does_ Media Center take advantage of it?
A: Media center does not use UDF for its burning.  Since the scenario of Media Center is to burn recorded media (in the tasks that allow you to burn CD/DVD), it uses IMAPI, not UDF.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Ravinder - re 55 desktop.ini and shell team - how will I know whether to bug this?
A: Why don't you bug this and we'll followup and resolve as appropriate... Thanks for bringing this up.

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I fogot to clioc on the Ask the Experts. Re Q43 it happens with good disks, but the disks had data. It could be that it was an ISO disk, but when I persevered, 2 more times, it was OK at the end, but took a long time.
A: This might be due to a device specific issues. We have had known perf issues with RW media in the past that have been fixed in the later releases.

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is reformatting the only way to change name on a UDF formatted CD/DVD?
A: No, you can change the volume name any time you want.  You don't have to reformat the media for this.

David [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is DVD Maker using UDF?
A: DVD Maker is not using the UDF life file system, but is mastering a UDF 1.02 per DVD-Video specification.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I have a pioneer DVD+RW DL drive it refused to format in UDF on vista (haven't tried the latest build) but it bought the farm during formating and I didn't feel like making a bunch more coasters.. is there a list of support drives that are supported?
A: Please try the latest build... It should have just worked, Pioneer drives are good and I have never seen an issue with them.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is there a differences between right clicking on the drive letter and choosing Format, and using the wizard to make it UDF?
A: No, the formatting process is the same, from both the wizard and right-clicking on the drive.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: How does one make a bootable CD/DVD? Would you please give us a step-by-step .
A: Although creating a bootable DVD/CD is not part of the Vista Shell, there are programmatic ways of adding a boot image to a DVD/CD.  If you are interested in creating a VB script to create a bootimage on a DVD, then you could visit http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/imapi/imapi/adding_a_boot_image.asp part of the IMAPI documentation.  Essentially it involves a media, a bootloader, and IMAPI which will create the bootsector on a DVD/CD media.  Do you need more detail?

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re Q73: There is no erase function when right-clicking the drive with that disk in the drive.
A: Are you sure you are trying this is a writer and not a ROM device.

Raj [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: How do you change volume name when there is no rename in context menu?
A: You can change the the Volume label from the drive properties dialog.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Re q 83 Yes as I just formatted a different used dvd-rw
A: Cool

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are there any built in tools in Vista to Duplicate a Disb,  Create a .ISO file and or Burn a .ISO file.   Sorry if this has been asked and answered, I made it here late.
A: No there are no such tools.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: So as I have only 64 bit systems installed for flashing I will have to go a very old floppy disk with 98SE on it to flash. Not a very nice path actualy
A: Unfortunately, it's the responsibility of the drive manufacturer to control their flashing experience.  This is a pain point we hear from customers that there is not a common device upgrade scenario in Vista, and it's a feature currently in concept.  Definitely not part of the Vista release at this time, but I want to provide some hope and thanks for sharing your pain.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: I am having the same thing. After a failed format of my disk to UDF, if I right click on the drive, Format is not an option.
A: Try format.com on the command prompt and see if that works.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Is there any interest in getting sample code on how to burn an ISO image in Vista to a DVD/CD?


Garrett [MSFT] (Expert):
A: While there are no tools built into vista to create or burn an .ISO file, IMAPIv2 supports this functionality natively in Vista.  The IMAPIv2 WinHEC slides show an example of a short VBscript to burn an ISO file.  Creating an ISO file using the IMAPI2 file system interfaces can be accomplished with a short script also.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tried Nero decided not to buy and used Window remove program to remove; now when I put any disk in the wondows options list 3 or four nero options to handle the disk.  None of the usual windows option work like autoplay.  How do I purge nero from OS?
A: Not sure... may have to contact Nero...

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Before you leave the chat, don’t forget to let us know how we’re doing!  To the right of your emoticon pull-down box is a “Chat Feedback” option.  If you don’t feel the chat was helpful, please ensure that you provide verbose comments on why you didn’t feel it was helpful and what we can do to improve the experience for you!!  If you would like to provide more feedback than the 1000 characters will allow, feel free to eMail us at LHBeta@microsoft.com.

Garrett [MSFT] (Expert):
A: While there are no tools built into vista to create or burn an .ISO file, IMAPIv2 supports this functionality natively in Vista.  The IMAPIv2 WinHEC slides show an example of a short VBscript to burn an ISO file.  Creating an ISO file using the IMAPI2 file system interfaces can be accomplished with a short script also.


Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: After a DVD Maker session is it possible to use remainig space?
A: No, I think the formats are conflicting..UDF will not be able to reuse the space.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: An InCD formatted CD/DVD RW will not reformat with Vista UDF.. why?
A: It should work... I don't see any reason why. Also try a full format and see if that works

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony...Yes! <:o)
A: Working on the answer, stand by.



Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are there any built in tools in Vista to Duplicate a Disb,  Create a .ISO file and or Burn a .ISO file.   Sorry if this has been asked and answered, I made it here late.
A: No, there is no such tool..powertoy maybe available later.

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: yes tony
A: Working on the answer, stand by.



Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: if you can do sample code for ISOs, and its a few lines of vbscript? why can it not be added in to the system?
A: We are working a power toy which will make this happen. Just keep your fingers crossed.

David [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Tony - re 82 bootable -yes, would like detail.
A: The link given by Tony includes a VBscript with step by step details. Can you precise what detail you need?

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Hey....I'm hearing that the NG are fixed....can folks check real quick for me?

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Not really Tony.  Just build it into the OS!
A: Don't discount that from a future version of the OS, right now we want to get the best possible Vista out! :o)

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Today's Best Question winner is Eagl177 for asking "THis may be stupid, but can we use UDF in some way like Sync Center to keep a copy of a document on the HD and on the UDF disk at the same time without manual intervention?  So if a HD crashed, it would already be on the UDF disk?"  Please email me the usual information at the alias!!  Congrats!

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: it's not Nero's fault that my XP tools won't remove all vistages of this "pain" it's Microspft's.
A: Every installer has to tell the OS what components need to be removed on uninstall.... so we can't do anything

Senthil [MSFT] (Expert):
This is Senthil here,have to head out.thanks for your inputs/questions. Hope we can answer more your questions in the newsgroups..

Martijn [MSFT] (Expert):
Thanks everyone for these great questions.  If you have any more, be sure to visit the newsgroup. Meanwhile, have fun burning CD's and DVD's with Vista.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
A: Guys... this was great chatting with you'll... lets do some burns using vista and get back to us in the newsgroup if you run into any issues. We are listening... If you need new features keep us posted

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: where can i found the script for burning iso with imapi ?
A: Working on it...Give me a few minutes.  Visit here http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowForum.aspx?ForumID=490&SiteID=1 for IMAPI support.  I'll post the sample code link here to that forum. 

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Which NG?
A: FEATURE FOCUS

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Ravinder: which ng is best?
A: FEATURE FOCUS

Wendy [MSFT] (Moderator):
Woohooo!!  Great chat today, everyone!!!  Get ready for RC1!!!

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: @Tony - re 82- How can I handle an, say, a flash update which needs to boot it's own OS using Optical media?
A: Again, that's the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure that their updating solution works as they designed it.  There isn't anything in Vista that would prevent you from using a media of your choice to attempt to boot.

Ravinder [MSFT] (Expert):
Are you'll ready for Vista!!!

Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
...Hi folks, we're working on getting that ISO burning sample up... thanks for your patience.


Tony [MSFT] (Expert):
Overtime? what's that? ;)


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  • I have a rewriteable dvd that I can't erase anymore. Everytime I try to erase it using Windows (Vista) or Nero it stops short of completeing the erase and a DESKTOP.INI file remains on the DVD. When I try to burn something on the DVD it says the disk has data on it. NERO asks if it should overwrite the disk, and I say yes, but it errors and can't write to the DVD. What is the problem? Thank you.

  • when i try to burn a movie onto a dvd-r cd , it says insert a writeable disc am i useing the wrong disc or do i have the wrong software

  • Justin, it can be for many reasons.

    It can be a problem with your DVD-R drive, it can be a problem with the media, and also a problem with the software...